[00:00:00] Welcome to Beyond the Microphone, a podcast about podcasters and the stories of how their shows came together, grew, and what they’ve discovered along the way. I’m your host, Adam Barou. And so as we start each episode, um, I like to talk about, you know, something related to the podcasting industry for a couple minutes before we get into our guest interview.

Adam Baruh: And today I wanted to talk about You know, an idea of balance, an idea of like a work life balance when it comes to the podcasting work because so many of us It’s not our full time job You’re very lucky if you get to the point where you’re monetized to that level where it can be your full time thing But many of us, um, have jobs, have families, have young children, have other things that we’re committed to, whether you’re involved in the church or whatever Um, but you know, we’re often with our podcasting side of our lives, we’re often balancing that [00:01:00] with everything else.

And, you know, I mean, I’ve been doing this now, this is my second podcast and, you know, I’ve spoken before about with my first podcast, how I ultimately started to get that feeling of pod fade, a little bit of a burnout feeling and partly that was due to the fact that I run three companies. I have four children.

Um, it just became a little bit time consuming, and plus, the way that I set up that podcast was not really sustainable. It was very intensive when it comes to researching the guests and preparing for interviews and stuff like that, doing pre interviews and stuff like that. So it just, with my lifestyle and what I got going on, it really wasn’t supportive.

And so, when I went about creating Beyond the Microphone, I mean, You know, I, I kind of looked at everything that goes into podcasting and I made, I made a decision like is, if I go this route, is this going to help reduce that pod [00:02:00] fade? Is this going to be sustainable? And so that’s how I kind of, um, you know, decided the different aspects of, of setting up beyond the microphone.

And, you know, I, I’m all about trying to help people prevent that, that pod fade. It’s, it’s really unfortunate because so many of us get into it with. Passion and purpose, and we’re really driven, and it’s so much fun connecting with, you know, people like Robert, you know, my guest here today. Um, so there’s so much that, like, gives you, gives back to us, personally, and, and really, um, It validates what we’re doing, but the business and the work side of it can catch up with you over time.

And so, um, how we balance the work we do in our podcast and with everything else in our lives, it’s, it’s something to pay attention to and something to, um, make decisions about. Um, before you even, you know, record your first interview, um, as much as you can, [00:03:00] you know, look at all the ins and outs and determine, like, is this going to be sustainable?

Is it not going to be sustainable? So something to think about. Um, I challenged, you know, people listening that are just starting out to kind of, you know, take a moment to, to, you know, get out a pen and paper and kind of write down, um, Um, the different ins and outs, the different aspects of producing a podcast and, you know, the decisions around, you know, what’s the best, um, path forward when it comes to some, some decision that you need to make.

So with that, let’s go ahead and introduce our guest here today. His name is Robert Ingalls. He’s the. Founder and CEO of Law Pods, whose team of expert producers, designers, editors, and sound engineers create professional, polished, and valuable podcasts with minimal time commitment from his client’s attorneys.

Robert’s path to becoming a podcast producer was anything but direct. For years, he battled anxiety from the pressure and long hours and constant conflict of a litigation career. When he was finally ready to throw in the towel, he had no [00:04:00] idea what to do next with no business marketing background and only a love for podcasts that he discovered while creating a podcast for his law firm.

Robert decided to see if lawyers would pay him to help launch their podcasts with very few takers in the early days. Robert spent two years in a corporate banking gig, grinding nights and weekends to finally bring law pods to life. So, Robert, welcome to Beyond the Microphone. Happy to have you here today.

Robert Ingalls: Hey man, it’s such a pleasure. I really appreciate you having me.

Adam Baruh: And, uh, yeah, I mean, you kind of actually inspired as I was, I was prepping for this interview today. Um, and I was trying to figure out a topic, you know, to kind of intro with, um, that definitely rang a chord with me. Um, you know, when it comes to. You know, just the, the grind, the work behind, um, you know, grinding nights and weekends while working another job.

I mean, that sentence alone definitely struck a chord with me because, you know, [00:05:00] when we’re doing this work, um, for our podcasts, you know, often it does fall on nights and weekends. First of all, welcome. Second of all, like, you know, I guess just let’s start with a little bit of your background and ultimately, you know, what led in to lo pods

Robert Ingalls: Sure. The, the nights and weekends to address that part. Like I, I still remember all of that when I had my first podcast. Just being Sunday night. Like, I hadn’t really learned batching yet, and just Sunday night, 3 a. m. Just trying to piece every little thing together, just so I can try to get it out and get the email out at the right time, everything’s scheduled, a little bit of PTSD there.

But, really, my path into podcasting, I can trace it back to, I know where I was standing, and my wife walked in the room, I was packing for the lake, and she said, I want to have a baby. And, uh, I said, okay, [00:06:00] uh, and I was a little, a little taken back because when we got married just, I mean, literally like four months earlier, it was like, well, I don’t know if we want to do that or not.

And that was, it was fine with me either way, I guess, but it just, at that point it was someone else’s problem. It was like future guy’s problem and all of a sudden she was standing there and I’m like, okay, when? And she was like, now, now, like I’ve been taking my temperature. I think now’s good and I’m like, shit, someone’s going to live here next year.

And I, I’d like to tell you that I had a proper adult emotional response, uh, but I kind of had a proper freak out mostly unbeknownst to her, but it just, it hit me hard because I was at a place in my life where I was barely hanging on. I was in this litigation career that I was not well suited for. It’s what I’d wanted to do my whole life.

And then I got there, and it was, it was really hard on my mental health. I don’t like conflict, I still don’t. Uh, but I also learned at a [00:07:00] young age, if you want to get anything done in life, you gotta lean into the things that are hard, right? Do hard things. And so, I was like, well, I just gotta keep figuring it out. And So I’m pushing and pushing and everybody else else around me and lol seems like they’re doing okay, and I can’t figure out how to make money I’m losing just losing my shit most days and Now like somebody’s gonna live here next year. I’m gonna be their primary mentor one of them and I said I got to get my life figured out like and So once I kind of gathered myself after a week or two I sat down and made a list of things I had to get figured out.

And at the top was money, because I was not making any. And, like, people think lawyers are all rich. No, most of us have a ton of debt. And there’s not that much money to go around, especially in a big market where there’s too many lawyers.

Adam Baruh: Mm-Hmm?

Robert Ingalls: And at the top, so at the top was money. I got a money book, listened to it, liked [00:08:00] it.

The author said, I have a podcast you should listen to. This is 2015, September. I’ve never listened to a podcast. And I take out my phone, I listen, and, and it turns out that podcast wasn’t really for me, but I’m already in there. I’m running a law firm at this point. So I type in something about like office leadership, something like that.

And I end up on this show called Awesome Office. It’s, uh, they’re not producing episodes anymore. I don’t know if they pod faded or it was intentional, but the first guest was Tom Bilyeu, and at the time he was with Quest Nutrition. He’s one of the founders, ended up. Uh, getting bought out of that for like monstrous money, but he was doing this show at the time too called Inside Quest, but he’s a guest on there and he said something that the thrust of the episode was essentially something we’ve heard a thousand times in our life, and it was, you can do anything you want with your life, and I finally heard it, I’m sitting there, I’ve been to all the school, [00:09:00] I’ve been practicing law for a few years, and from the outside, I think to a lot of people like I’ve made it, that’s the success, like you did the thing, right?

And, and I don’t feel like that at all. And then this guy’s telling me like, you don’t have to do that. You can spread your wings and fly and do anything you want. And I heard it and just took it seriously and just dove face first. I owned this mic within 30 days of listening to that episode. I, this was the old days where you couldn’t, it was a lot harder to podcast back then.

It’s gotten a lot easier. So I had a mixer, like a little two channel, you know, or four channel, whatever mixer with two XLR inputs. I got a digital audio recorder, all the chords, never knew which ones worked in the beginning. And I’m just in my spare bedroom, just like playing with it because the medium itself.

I mean, the way it spoke to me, I just like type something in and all of a sudden this guy is like telling me things that I feel like are, it felt like it was going to change my life and it did. And I wanted to be a part of that. I, I had something to say, I don’t know if you can tell, [00:10:00] I’m, uh, rather verbose and I always have been. And so the idea that like my, I have something to say and I can get involved in this. Was so appealing to me. So that was, that was step one. That’s how it started.

Adam Baruh: Okay. And so when you, this was a guest appearance when you first, or this was like you kind of launching your first show or?

Robert Ingalls: Oh, like, Oh, where with

Adam Baruh: Well, when you got the microphone and you were starting to

Robert Ingalls: Oh yeah. I was just playing. I was just learning. Yeah. I bought it. I bought, I bought all this stuff. And then one of my friends from law school would come over to my office. And I’d set up my stuff and we’d just learn together, like, tweaking the board and seeing what worked and just getting comfortable with the mics and playing around.

And I still have a bunch of those episodes that I, because I learned to teach myself how to edit podcasts that way too.

Adam Baruh: Yeah.

Robert Ingalls: And I, I just loved it. And I knew I wanted to start something. I didn’t even know what. And then I ended up starting one out of [00:11:00] my law firm. And it, uh, I think it made it 10 episodes in my law firm before it was very clear.

I wasn’t going to talk about law. I would always find myself on the episodes, meandering into things I cared about and

Adam Baruh: Yeah. Like what? Like what are some of the topics that you covered?

Robert Ingalls: a lot of personal development stuff, because at the same time, I really just discovered personal development at that moment, because when I got into podcasting, I found, uh, that, that episode from Tom bill you, and then I found a ton of content he had, and he’s very into personal development. And I had never really read a self help. If you want to call it self help, um, but just personal development mindset, just investing in yourself. And that I, I was intoxicated with that too. And I mean, I still am to a degree. Like I invest in myself a little bit every day in some way. Like I am, I try not to put my head on the pillow at night.

Without being better than I was when I woke up in the morning in some way.

Adam Baruh: [00:12:00] Mm hmm.

Robert Ingalls: And that kind of stuff really appealed to me. Figuring out your mindset and a way to approach the world that gives you more power. That it gets you closer to the things you want. Instead of accepting your lot in life, deciding. I mean, ultimately, you can be anything you want.

If you’re willing to do what it takes to try to get the thing. And stop making excuses for it. And figure it out. Yeah, it might be harder for you. You might have some roadblocks, but what are you going to do? When you’re 75, 80, 90 years old and you’re looking back, do you want to say, I wish I would have, or do you want to say there’s literally nothing else I could have done?

I left it all on the table, you know, and that’s, I still, I mean, I think you could probably hear it. I’m still very passionate about that and it goes into what I’ve done with my business. Like I have no business sitting here doing what I’m doing for some of the largest companies in the world. I have no business doing that.

It like from, from, from my old mindset, because I went to school for criminal justice. [00:13:00] I didn’t take one marketing class, one communications, uh, one business class. I took business law. And, and so the idea that I’m working with some of the biggest companies in the world, and I write, I write copy. I’m not as much anymore that I have a bigger team, but I was, I’ve written a lot of copy that has been used in marketing campaigns by some of these firms and that blows my mind, but it all comes back to making the decision to become the kind of person that can do that instead of saying, I’m not, not yet.

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Adam Baruh: Yeah, and that’s something that I don’t know for me as an outsider I, I probably wouldn’t [00:15:00] guess is part of a normal law school education is uh, talking about mindset and mental health and stuff like that and certainly You know, even before the pandemic, going back to 2015, I, you know, I don’t think it was really spoken about all that, that much.

So, you’re right. I mean, I think a lot of people kind of come to kind of a revelation at some point that where things start to click. Um, and so maybe, you know, in your words, like how, how much has that changed your life when it came to just kind of discovering how important the power of mindset is?

Robert Ingalls: I mean, it’s a, it’s everything to me. It’s, I had, I’d started to figure it out, but didn’t have a word for it a few years earlier, probably around, around 2012. I, I went through a breakup right after law school in 2011 and I wanted more out of my life and kind of made a list as I’m apt to do when I got to figure things out.

And I, I was able to put my [00:16:00] life together in a different way that was able. To help me attract the kind of person I was looking for and that worked. Um, but I didn’t really think, Oh, I didn’t really put it together. Like I did that and I got that. And now I’m changed as a person who views the world as someone who can change things easily.

It may be easily is the wrong word, but. But then disco, like the book Mindset, it’s called Mindset by Carol Dweck. That was pivotal for me. And I think, Tom Bill, you talked about it in that episode. Because it’s, it outlines the growth mindset, the fixed mindset. Fixed mindset thinks, this is who I am, this is how I am, I’m rigid.

I either am good at this or I’m not good at this. And the growth mindset says, yet, essentially, yet. I can, you know, you might never be. Um, Neil Peart, but if you practice, you’re going to get a lot better. It, there’s almost nothing, I don’t know if there is anything that you can’t get [00:17:00] significantly better at if you’re willing to do the reps, if you’re willing to be the kind of person that becomes that.

And so that is how I live my life in every way when it comes to being a parent. That’s how I do it. I read at least a few parenting books a year. I read a bunch before I had the first kid, because I didn’t feel like I knew

Adam Baruh: of us.

Robert Ingalls: Yeah, but still, when I encounter a problem that I don’t really understand, I go to an expert.

And I let the expert teach me, and then I do the reps. No matter what it is that I’m trying to figure out how to do. And it’s, it’s empowering, because I was the kind of person Who would have seen, like, I scoffed at self help and people that paid money to go see Tony Robbins. Like I just, ha ha ha. And like, what a silly person to behave like that, to think they’ve got it all figured out and someone else can’t help them.

And, but that’s, it’s,

Adam Baruh: Yeah, I mean, to your credit, I, I definitely think [00:18:00] the pandemic was a game changer when it comes to that sort of mindset and and thinking about just mindset in general, there’s, I think it’s a lot more normalized to discuss mindset, the importance of mental health, and all that. You know, I guess on that regard, like, you know, how do you evaluate, evaluate how much the pandemic had to do just from a society perspective in talking about these sorts of topics around mindset?

Um, you know, you were. dissatisfied with your career. I feel, you know, for me coming up in my career when I did, that wasn’t really a conversation. You can have a whole, you know, a lot of dialogue around it. Just things have changed. And I guess the question is, is like, how much would you attribute the pandemic to that?

And do you think this is something that is going to stick around? Or, you know, this kind of focal point in conversations around mental health? Is that is that just kind of something that is opened up for [00:19:00] now? And you You know, I guess maybe, you know, talk a little bit about your perspective on that.

Robert Ingalls: Yeah, I, I think, I think it was helpful and I think it was also. Already happening. I think there was a bit of a societal shift towards that happening already in the willingness to discuss mental health and therapy and younger generation had already, it seemed to start embracing that and because my generation and certainly people older than me and my parents. It was, and I don’t want to paint with too broad of a brush, but it wasn’t something you really talked about. And even when I was in law school, they, they paid lip service. The legal community paid some lip service to mental health. And they, there was a lot of discussion about it. And even when I became a lawyer, and I’m still a lawyer and I still do my CLEs.

We, in North Carolina, every three years have to take a substance [00:20:00] abuse slash mental health hour once every three years. And, but even then, even when I was in law school and just getting out, they talked about it a lot, but you damn sure didn’t want to be the person that was having these issues. Like, you could feel that.

Like, when I applied to law school, there was a lot of questions about that felt like they were about my sanity. And then when I applied to take the bar, there was a lot of questions that were asked in a lot of different ways that made me feel like you better not have any, any problems over there that could cause you to be a liability for us.

Adam Baruh: I mean, that’s part of it, too. It’s because, like, you could, you know, your issues around your own mental health could destroy a case.

Robert Ingalls: Sure. Absolutely. And I understand that them wanting to ensure that too, but it just, It definitely made a lot of us feel on edge, like we didn’t, and at that point I didn’t, I [00:21:00] didn’t have mental health problems. That wasn’t something someone like me had because that’s a weakness, right? And, but I, people certainly had that feeling.

It gave you that feeling like you didn’t want to be a kind of person that did because then you might not be allowed in the club. And that conversation, what has been changing? I still think that there’s in the law, there’s still a little bit. Of of that there, but I think it’s getting a lot better, uh, along with all of society, but I think covid just exposed a lot of cracks that people already had.

But interestingly enough, 1 of the things that we saw in the legal community. And, and I don’t, I say we, but I’ve talked to people that work in mental health because I’m very close to that. I teach CLEs on mental health and anxiety now, and I work with the North Carolina Lawyers Assistance Program and the North Carolina Bars Program.

And one of the things that happened that was really interesting when COVID first started was [00:22:00] lawyers were reporting better mental health.

Adam Baruh: Mm.

Robert Ingalls: And for, because for the first time. In a really long time for a lot of them, there was nothing happening.

Adam Baruh: Yeah, like, courts were slowed down, and they’re working. Now lawyers are working from home instead of, like, the 15 hour days in the office that you would hear about.

Robert Ingalls: Yeah. The, the, the Lawyer’s Assistance Program, uh, Executive Director, the way she explains it is, when you, uh, for a lot of lawyers, you are just always in this heightened state. You’re always on, in this constant state of fight or flight, if you will. And if you think about a zebra. A zebra goes into fight or flight for a handful of minutes. And it’s over one way or the other and, but for lawyers and I’m sure some other areas, but you get into that state and you’re there for a prolonged periods of time and it’s really [00:23:00] hard on your system. And so when covid happened, so many of them were able to come out of that space. And go, I like this and, and I’ve talked to a number of people because I’ve been doing these CLEs and people reach out to me because they hear my story and, and some of them left during COVID because they got that downtime and they were able to reevaluate and go, Oh, I don’t need to feel like this all the time.

And, and they had time and energy, I think, to look at the world and see what else was out there and everybody had gone remote. So now you could start applying for jobs. That were remote and it really, it was a game changer for that, for that. But overall, I think people started to have that comfort.

Companies started to understand these people are at home. They’re not talking to other people. They’re on zoom doing happy hours. We need to pay attention to these employees, mental health. If we ever want to keep this business going today, but also when we bring them back later. And so I think it was [00:24:00] helpful, um, I don’t know what the long term damage is going to be to all of our mental health from all of that, but I mean, that is what it

Adam Baruh: Yeah, no, I have a lot of optimism. I think it opened the door to a lot more dialogue and it definitely feels a lot more normal now to show vulnerability and to talk about mental health. So,

Robert Ingalls: you know,

Adam Baruh: you know, I think, you know, if you’re able to, you know, make an impact, you know, even for us individually in our own lives when it comes to just.

You know, being open to friends, being open to talking to co workers, like listening to co workers, the more and more that’s happening, um, it’s, it’s such a benefit to us all. And I wanted to switch gears a little bit and talk about LawPods. You know, what, what is LawPods? How did you kind of have the idea to, you know, start a production, um, outlet, if you will, for podcasts, for lawyers getting into podcasts?

Robert Ingalls: I would love to, other than, uh, the [00:25:00] women in my life, my, my wife and my daughters, it’s my favorite thing and it’s, you know, going back to the earlier story, I was in my, In my law office at night recording this and my friend, um, Josh Goodman, I went to law school with, we’re recording. And at one point we’ve been doing it for a few weeks.

And he said, I predict that next year you’re going to be doing this for lawyers. And I’d never considered this. And at the time I was like, ha ha, you know, very funny. The idea of not doing law, of going to all that school and spending all that money and, uh, was just absurd. But, and he was wrong. He was wrong.

Um, it was a little over two years from that conversation that my first client gave me money to make a podcast for them.

Adam Baruh: Mm hmm.

Robert Ingalls: And it really was just a hobby. I loved it, but I didn’t seriously consider that I could do it for somebody else. And that was a mindset issue too, is I hadn’t gotten to that point.

Cause yeah, I read the book Mindset and I started on that journey. But as anybody who’s gone [00:26:00] on a personal development journey, especially somebody who had a very rigid mindset. It’s not a switch. It’s you, it’s you, you’re working and, and working through it and, and doing the work to become the kind of person who then views the world through the lens of someone who did the work.

Right. And so I was, I started mine. I ended up going to doing that for a while, really getting after it. And then. Started showing up at co working spaces and doing some teaching and helping people and coaching because it wasn’t popular yet I I was quickly becoming the guy in town who did it And that was not really what I was trying to do, it just happened.

I was so passionate about it, I was always around, talking about it, doing it, went to the co working spaces where they had studios, and helping them set studios up. And so people started coming to me to learn, like, Hey, will you teach me how to do this? And then a lawyer in the community saw me just out, just doing it all the time, and he said, I want to start a [00:27:00] podcast.

Will you help me? I said, I would love to do that. And he said, come by in the morning. I mean, that’s a good client right there.

Adam Baruh: Yeah.

Robert Ingalls: And that was my first client and that was in late 17 and ended up teaching another lawyer a few months later, how to podcast, cause she wanted to do it herself. And then at the end she said, okay, I know how to do it.

I don’t want to like you do it for me. It’s a lot of work. Second client. And at that point I had decided I decided to quit law entirely. And I went and worked at a bank. One of my friends from law school was, uh, was working in compliance at a bank. And I went there. I, it was, I mean, one of the best things that could have ever happened to me because it was a, it was a pretty cushy job, especially after grinding it out in law, like the, the banks throw, throw money around at people a lot, a lot more.

Uh, so that was nice. I, it was very low stress and it gave me that space. To explore and help and work with clients [00:28:00] and build the thing. And it was slow. It was really slow. And I think at the end of the first year, towards the end of 18, I got one more client

Adam Baruh: hmm.

Robert Ingalls: and they were all small, just, I was given it away, which any producer, uh, who starts out their own gig being the only employee of the company knows how that feels like you’re just giving it away.

You’re working basically for minimum wage. If you’re lucky.

Adam Baruh: Right.

Robert Ingalls: And like I learned how to use Photoshop. I was doing all the editing and writing the show notes and uploading. And, but it taught me the ins and the outs of the business. And it was so exciting though. Like I, people say, how did you know that’s what you want to do?

Like, how did you make that decision? I didn’t really make that decision. It’s kind of like asking somebody, how did you know you were in love? I didn’t have to think about it. I, it’s all I wanted to do.

Adam Baruh: Yeah. No, my experience is very, very similar. I never really set out to get into podcasting. It just kind of, like, came out of, uh. Yeah. You know, my own healing journey that I was on, and it just kind of manifested, which was [00:29:00] very interesting. Um, but do you, with Law Pods, do you guys mostly, like, help lawyers with getting launched?

Or are you, um, you know, doing the editing and, you know, all the production for, for all of their episodes? Or kind of a mix of both?

Robert Ingalls: I mean, when you’re with Lollipop, you’re with us for life. Uh, that’s, I mean, that’s what we’re looking for, but it’s really front to back. Like we help them launch. We do strategy, create the cover art, do the professional voiceovers with soundtracks, like just get it out in the world, make it beautiful, but then.

We, you know, we’re on Riverside right now. We set up a Riverside studio for our clients with a calendar. They book it. We’re in the room. We check their sound levels, get them ready, hit record. They talk, they hang up. They never think about it again. They’re busy. Lawyers are busy. Having been one, your time is the most valuable thing.

Like, you’re moving all the time. And the fact that they can sit down, and we have some lawyers that are in their hotel rooms on the road all the time, and they’ve got their USB mic [00:30:00] that we send them. They plug it right into the computer, they sit down, they have a conversation with us, they hang up, they never think about it again.

And it turns into all the things, you know, the podcast, the show notes, the transcript, the full video, the video clips with templates and share it to their social accounts. Just you do the talking, we do the rest. And that’s, that’s what it is now. In the beginning it was, I would go to their offices with like my stands, my floor stands and set them up.

And, uh, and, and really COVID back to COVID was. Key for my new business model because I couldn’t go to people anymore and I had to figure out how to do it differently. And then when it, when I did it, it opened me up to the world and now we have clients all over the world. I said, I will never go back.

Just the logistics of trying to do in person aid. You know, you’re geographically locked and if you’re, you would have to hire contractors in other cities

Adam Baruh: even necessary anymore in this day and age. We’re all used to doing everything [00:31:00] over Zoom or whatever.

Robert Ingalls: I don’t think it’s beneficial. I mean, you’re in San Diego, I’m on the other coast. How could we ever organize to try to get in the same room together? It’d be, I mean, it’d be great.

Adam Baruh: about the budget behind that, too. Traveling all over the place.

Robert Ingalls: Right.

Adam Baruh: It’d be nice to have

Robert Ingalls: And so it was great.

Adam Baruh: Um, that’s great. So, so you got into production. How many clients do you have right now? Like, are you

Robert Ingalls: Somewhere in the 40 range, I

Adam Baruh: that that’s a lot. I mean, I have four podcasts that I produce and that’s that keeps me busy, you know, like a lot, you know, just managing the four.

So do you have?

Robert Ingalls: are helping you with that? If you

Adam Baruh: Well, I had my okay, so we were a team of six about nine months ago. We had a couple of marketing people. Um, that were more like virtual assistants, my executive assistant, I had a sound engineer and then the various hosts, right? Right now, it’s just the hosts and me. Um, we [00:32:00] started using Descript, um, so there, there wasn’t really a need for my sound engineer anymore.

Um, as well as the marketing team, because Descript actually wants, you can build templates, um, for Like creating a tick tock friendly, you know, short form video post or like an audiogram square format so you can build those templates into script and then click a button and output, you know, some quote that way.

Robert Ingalls: I would love to talk to you more about that at some point, because we do all of our video clips in premiere pro. And my, my video editors have always pushed back on me about the script. And I’ve always wondered, are they pushing back because they’re trying to preserve their jobs, which is fine. I get it. I don’t know.

Uh, but they’ve always pushed back when I’ve showed it to them and been like, we can’t do it for this reason or the other, but I’ve all, cause we use the script for a

Adam Baruh: I don’t use it exclusively, like I actually do a majority of it in Descript and then I use a platform called Clipchamp, which then for making the [00:33:00] YouTube ready videos, I’ll bring it into Clipchamp and there’s some stock video and some stuff in there that really help kind of polish and round out the whole production. But yeah, Descript by itself is probably a little limiting, which is where, you know, your. Um, your team is probably advising you against it, but I think it still does a lot. Like, um, I probably, I could probably get away without using Clipchamp and still be fine. But, uh, tell me about your team, um, that works with you.

Like, do you have VAs and, and other people? I mean, you must at, at that

Robert Ingalls: yeah. So right now, uh, nine, nine employees were hiring our 10th next week because we’ve had a lot of onboarding over the summer that are going to be going into production over the next month and it’s, it’s been wild the, as you’re building a business, the, the strangest [00:34:00] part is you’re just, you’re just walking blindly. And, and you don’t like, you don’t know what to do all the time. You’re, you’re just kind of using your best intuition. You’re listening to books, you’re talking to mentors, but you’re really just forging a path where one doesn’t exist. And which is probably what really excites me about it. Like it’s the most stressful and, and, uh, anxiety inducing part, but I think it’s also the thing that if it wasn’t there, I would be bored, but. Even paying one person, I brought my first employee on right when COVID started because we were starting to grow and but just being responsible for one paycheck was just, whoa, like, pretty really stressful. And there were some months where it was like, oh, it’s hard to pay. And that went on for a while.

And I was one employee for a while. I think I didn’t really hire my second one until like the end of Q3 in 21. And, but [00:35:00] then it went from there and then it became three and four over the next couple of months. And, but then figuring out what everybody’s supposed to do and then managing people, which I mean, you know that problem now that becomes very difficult because I don’t think it’s, I don’t think it’s intuitive.

You have to learn how to do that while you’re doing all the other things and making sure the product is still good.

Adam Baruh: Yeah.

Robert Ingalls: And that you’re continuing your sales pipeline. And it’s just, it’s a labor of love. Like if I didn’t love this, I would hate it. I, uh, because it’s really stressful. I wake up in the middle of the night and, I mean, it’s great.

I do. I love it. I would never get, I feel like it’s like a kid. You’re like, oh, they’re really terrible sometimes, but I love them. And I, it’s one of the only things I think about. I’m always just trying to solve these problems. What’s going here? What’s moving here? How can I change this? Who should I hire?

Does it make sense? Can we, does the budget work? Where can we find more margin? What can we [00:36:00] offer our clients that would be of more value to them? And, and it’s, it’s all those things, but, uh, I heard this years ago. I don’t know who said it, but I think about it every day. If it was easy, everyone would do it.

Adam Baruh: Yeah,

Robert Ingalls: And that, that keeps me going. Because I can do hard things. I can put my nose down and just go. Um, especially with something that I enjoy doing. And, I mean, the payoff. Like, we’re taking, I don’t know what your long term plans are, but, um, can we use, I’ve probably been cursing already. Do we curse on the podcast?

Adam Baruh: we’re good with that.

Robert Ingalls: I’m after fuck you money. I, that, that’s, that’s the goal. Like, I grew up very meager. Um, my parents, like, we lived in a trailer when I was a little kid. And, and my mom’s a hustler. Like, she has built a thing. Like, and it was incredible to watch. Uh, but I, I’m driven. I, I want, I, I don’t. Like eating shit, and I’ve been a bad employee my whole life.[00:37:00]

Same, my mom. She ran her own shop, too. Like, we just, we’re not good at that. Everybody has their skill. But I want to have financial security, which is really, to me, freedom. To be able to come and go and do what I want and not have to give my time for something that I don’t want to. You know, I don’t want to sell my time for money to someone else.

Um, when it’s not something that I, I feel really passionate about because I don’t think I’ll ever stop working because I love it. I love creating something and, and really serving someone else and helping create value for them. I love that feeling. I don’t know what that’s going to look like after this, but I, I know that I’m going to keep building this thing until it gives me that freedom.

Adam Baruh: yeah, yeah. All right, well, as we come to a close here today, um, I want to ask you a couple of questions, and I think you’ve, you’ve probably addressed a lot of them here, but, uh, the, the two questions are on the theme of discoveries. Um, the first is really just about [00:38:00] podcasting. Like, what are some of the discoveries that you’ve made over, You know, your, you know, time of doing this that you’ve made about just podcasting in general, like how, how has podcasting changed?

How has the technology changed? You know, along those lines, what sort of discoveries have you made about podcasting?

Robert Ingalls: The big one is ease of access is it’s gotten so much easier for the average person. To make a good podcast, because you know this really well in order to make a really professional podcast that sounds almost as good as anything you’re going to hear on NPR is a good USB microphone and a quiet room. And you sit, you talk, you record into something like Riverside, we can have this conversation.

You’re getting 1080p up to 4K of a webcam that you can cut and make that look really good. And that just wasn’t something that was easy to do. Like when I started out, a lot of people [00:39:00] were still doing double enders. And, and I did a bunch of them where you’d get on a Zoom call or Skype at the time, I feel like I’m dating myself a little, and you’d get on a call and you’d have the conversation over Skype, but you’d be recording your own video at your desk, and you’d be recording your own audio right there as well.

And then you’d send it to the other person and they would mix it all together. And that was one of the only ways to actually get something quality. And, but I just think we’re past that. Like, Riverside does a really good job. You have Squadcast is another excellent option that people together and they’re very intuitive to use.

It’s really mostly plug and play. So, that’s a big one, I think, that has opened up the space that has allowed people to come in without having to have all of this excessive knowledge. All the apps that have come out, um, For better or for worse, I think Anchor has been [00:40:00] good for podcasting. Uh, I know what they’re up to over there.

I think I do at least. They’re after that YouTube model where they can own podcasting and then charge us all. Uh, or make us listen to ads if we ever want to hear a podcast. I’m opposed to that. It also lowered the bar. It made it really easy to get an RSS feed free

Adam Baruh: Yeah.

Robert Ingalls: and that allowed people who otherwise Probably wouldn’t have had a voice in the marketplace to enter and and I like that I think ultimately it’s it’s a good thing to get more of those voices out there and expose that to people Students in school now can start a podcast For free.

And, and so that’s, you know, I, I feel like I could talk at length about it, but that’s one of the things that I think has been the coolest development as well. And it’s made my job, just all this technology has made my job and your job, I’m sure infinitely easier because we don’t need. All of the bells and the whistles in order to create a good product for our [00:41:00] clients.

Adam Baruh: yeah, totally agree with that. All right, so finally, um, again on the theme of discoveries, uh, more, you know, personal discoveries. You know, what, what discoveries have you made about yourself? You know, what have you learned about yourself through podcasting? Or what have your children learned? Yeah,

Robert Ingalls: there. They have lots of opinions on things. Give me one

Adam Baruh: Mm hmm. See, this is the real podcasting right here. I told him when, when we got started, I’m, I’m good with whatever I, you know, there’s this notion of high production value and you know, a lot of editing trying to go for, you know, that NPR style quality. I, I told Robert as we got started, cause I, I heard his kids in the background, don’t worry about it.

I mean, that’s life. And I actually like when life is, is, you know, in the background around us and we can hear it. So welcome back, Robert.

Robert Ingalls: Hey, it’s good to be back. Uh, [00:42:00] so, uh, discoveries I’ve made about myself with podcasting. It’s really learning to, through being on the microphone. Because I, I remember. Publishing that first episode and the stress and anxiety of just talking and then putting that out into the world, it was, that was really tough for me because I was scared of being criticized.

And I still don’t love it, but I’ve also developed the kind of, uh, fortified mindset that instead of taking criticism so personally, I think about it. I mean, back to Tom, Bill, you do this. I don’t listen to him as much anymore, but he was instrumental in my life. One of the things he said to help me was when somebody criticizes you.

First, try not to take it personally. I know it might hurt, but think about it like this. Think about it. Like, uh, [00:43:00] if somebody threw something at your head and it, Oh, that stings, right? That stings, but bend down and pick it up and see what it is. Cause sometimes there might be a piece of gold there. And it’s like, think about the criticism that people are launching at you.

Because usually when someone criticizes you, they’re trying to hurt you sometimes. Like they just want to, they want to, but it’s hard to hurt someone if you’re coming from a completely, Uh, wild place. If you say something completely off base, they’re not really going to take that personally. Because it doesn’t apply.

And so a lot of times when someone’s criticizing you, there’s a little bit of truth in there. It’s at least rooted in truth. He’s like, take that, think about what that truth is and be open enough with yourself to admit that you’re not, that something’s wrong. It’s okay. It’s okay to be wrong. Like stop measuring yourself worth on whether you’re perfect and be okay to go and start to think about criticism.

Like, thank you. Thank you [00:44:00] for exposing something to me that mattered and, and. Come on, not on camera, please. No, we have naked people in the office. I think they were off camera. I hope, um, I’ll let your editing team handle that. Um, if they were, uh, but being appreciative. And that was one of the things that podcasting did for me was I, I knew that I had to put my voice out there if I was going to have an impact.

And if I was going to grow and I did, I kept putting it out there. And, and I got more comfortable with it and yet there was criticism and I didn’t like it, but some of it also, I think a lot of it probably ultimately made me better because I thought about the things I was doing the, I mean the filler words, that’s something I’ve gotten criticism about and I thought a lot about it and I focused on it and I went to [00:45:00] a Toastmasters class and, and really I listened to a lot of my own podcast and heard what I was doing. And tried to think do that. And I think that was really the biggest, one of the biggest things for me was being comfortable my voice out there and opening myself up. To other people, and, and potential criticism. And not letting that stop me. Because I know so many people stop there. They get anxious, and they say, If I never do the thing, I can never fail at the thing.

I can never be criticized for the thing. But you can, you’ll also never get to feel what it feels like to be the person who did the thing. Because, honestly, like, the actual accomplishing of the thing, that only lasts for a second. It’s over. You know, you celebrate, you’re excited, but then it’s over, you’re on to the next thing.

But what [00:46:00] lives on forever is becoming the person who was even capable of doing the thing. And that is where, that, that, I don’t know. I think that’s where podcasting took me. I just kept doing it. And then it connected me to the world. I met everybody. Like my whole network. I know you now, because we did this.

And, and we’ve shared this like intimate conversation about ourselves and I don’t know, man, to me, podcasting is everything. I love

Adam Baruh: I love it. That’s a great quote to end with. And you know, certainly what I’m hearing from you is a story of emotional courage. And yeah, for, for people that are kind of in that zone right now who may be dealing with the anxiety and the nervousness, like find a way to power through it. Because the greatest growth in my life has been where I’ve encountered.

You know, my own situation of emotional courage, and I’ve, I forced myself to get through it. And [00:47:00] here I am today. So thank you so much for sharing your story. It’s great to hear, you know, about other podcast producers specifically and kind of, you know, what their journey has been like for me, you know, being a producer, I’m very interested in hearing those sorts of details.

So Robert, thank you so much for coming on and for being my guest here today.

Robert Ingalls: Hey man, it was my pleasure. I really appreciate it.

Adam Baruh: Yeah, thank you. Robert Ingalls is a recovering trial lawyer, speaker, and the founder of LawPods, where he and his team help some of the premier law firms in the world launch and grow podcasts that build relationships and drive revenue. At LawPods, Robert and his team help some of the premier law firms launch and grow branded podcasts that build relationships and drive revenue.

Robert speaks frequently on podcast marketing, entrepreneurship, prioritizing mental health, and law office technology. He’s also a girl dad, mentor, traveler, and longboard skateboarder. Beyond the Microphone is sponsored by PodTask. [00:48:00] Whether you’re just starting out in podcasting, or you’ve been at this a while, and are looking to save time so you can focus on creating amazing content for your listeners, Go check out podcast, a podcast management and marketing platform designed by podcasters for podcasters with podcasts, automated workflow, and AI-based marketing tools.

You’ll save time and sanity and be better equipped to grow your shows. If you’re enjoying beyond the microphone, please subscribe on Apple Podcasts or wherever you’re listening, as well as to our YouTube channel. You can find links to all of these in our episode show notes. Thank you all for listening, and we’ll see you next time on Beyond the Microphone.

Well, thanks, man. I know

Beyond the Microphone is produced and distributed by EIQ Media Group, LLC. Elevate your emotional IQ with podcasts and content focused on entrepreneurship, overcoming adversity, stories of emotional courage, women’s health, aging, and more. [00:49:00]